Character Class Restrictions

[Velspera]

That's why I said I'm torn between BLAIR and Kami, because the character sheet idea was YOURS.

DUH.

[Kamimaia]

You guys have until I post this (within four days, I plan to spice it up and give it a clean before making it official) to come up with:

A: A BETTER PROP

B: A COHERENT SUGGESTION (THAT MEANS SPECIFYING THE PROBLEM AND A POSSIBLE SOLUTION) BACKED BY MAJOR PLAYERS HERE.

Get to work. That means all of you lurking without giving an opinion, I don't want to hear bitching when you find out you can't use rocket boots and armor at the same time, or that there's not a Sky Pirate class, or enuff naruto references or w/e. You decided to keep quiet- and quiet people don't get to cry.

[Cpt.Gingerbeard]

You guys have until I post this (within four days, I plan to spice it up and give it a clean before making it official) to come up with:

A: A BETTER PROP

B: A COHERENT SUGGESTION (THAT MEANS SPECIFYING THE PROBLEM AND A POSSIBLE SOLUTION) BACKED BY MAJOR PLAYERS HERE.

Get to work. That means all of you lurking without giving an opinion, I don't want to hear bitching when you find out you can't use rocket boots and armor at the same time, or that there's not a Sky Pirate class, or enuff naruto references or w/e. You decided to keep quiet- and quiet people don't get to cry.

so me requesting sky fire rouges to be called Sky pirates is too late?

Edit: i suppose i have a sudgestion (being the busy body asshole that i am)- A slight simplification of the current systerm (perhaps, you be the judge) Basicly my idea is this. People choose a wepon class and  a sub wepon class, where items are ordered in terms of level/rank (where something like a spear would be e rank and something like a dark spear would be S rank). The sub wepon should be about 2/3 levels below the main wepon class- Advancing through the ranks would be simple- just do something to prove that you deserve to use said items- acheive some sort of in game quest or show some sort of strength or power during roleplay (say defeating X amount of people in pvp when using the same rank wep- also the possiblity to add deterents to items like blade of grass to stop people power farming it, like an extra requiremnt of 20 vines or something difficult). This would allow for a greater level of customisation -however a possible filtering process may be needed to match character with wepon choises, No good cap using Spears and magic when the man is clearly an axe and lava buck- er gun man. Altho the one disadvantage i'd see with this is that people may simly just stick to the same combination (sword and gun or something)

(list of possible wep types)
Swords
Bludgeoning (Hammers, flails, ect)
Magic
Bow
Throwing (boomerangs, knives ect)
Axe (could be combined with swords to make bladed weps tho)
Gun (flintlock, harpoon ect

As far as accesory and armour goes, thoes should be matched towards charcters aswell, however more closely monitered. It would make sence for a pirate to be able to swim (flippers) and breath under water longer than most (Diving helm) in the same way to would make sence for a mage to fly (rocket boots) and be able to recover magic quicker/ use less (band of star power/natures gift) However not the other way around-(no matter how much i want cap to fly ...D:).This is where charachter sheets would become more important simply to make the decision process easier as to what a person can and cant have (for the mods, tho tbh this may put some more pressure on the mods and more work, which is my only worry).   The 2 week good behaviour play to get an extra item could also be modified slightly to make players to obtain new items only after having roleplayed towards some sort of objective that warents them (say a person decides to go evil, and create an evil faction it would make sence that they are given acess to demonite armour- however should be striped of the armour the second they turn "good- also time period could be adjusted) and perhaps a single request single rejection basis so people dont ask for something rediculus,a deternt  to stop people simply acting out of charchter for items(i deserve a luck house shoe, due to the fact that my characher has spent the last two weeks jumpling off high places and "learning" to survive). A possible armour- wepon-accesory type restriction combination could also be included eg thoes wearing a full set of molten wouldnt be able to use hermese boots or jumping items due to "weight" restrictions and would perhaps be limmited only to grapple (placing more of these on higher ranked items to motivate people to use the lesser ranked items)

(also possible exception should be made for (perhaps) the grapple, simply to alow people to cave dive without the occasional bout of death - the inabilitty to move- the ever frequent need to build dirt bridge after dirt bridge due to lack of grapple)

What you guys thing (if i have  been incoherent, feel free to ask me to elaborate or simply clarify any point)?

[Velspera]

also the possiblity to add deterents to items like blade of grass to stop people power farming it, like an extra requiremnt of 20 vines or something difficult).

This is something I can't agree with at all.

Yeah, Blade of Grass is the easiest of all the elemental weapons to create, but 1) people not in green alignment would already be restricted from using it unless they earned it as an extra slot under the system proposed for good behavior and 2) not ALL high-tier swords need to be as ridiculously hard to create as the Fiery Greatsword. 

For a person with basic armor (or even no armor, like mages) in green alignment, obtaining just the stingers is hard enough.

The only problem we had with people making Blades of Grass was that everyone, no matter their character's background and alignment, was making and using them because there was no alignment restriction just because it was the easiest high-powered weapon to obtain (and believe me, even -I- suffered from this). 

This should no longer be a problem if people would play their characters the way they are supposed to be played.

EDIT: After thinking this over a bit more, Cap, if people are still concerned about this a restriction on the QUANTITY of any craftable high-tier item could be implemented since there are restrictions on USING items but not on making them.  There'd be no issue of people farming BoGs and handing them out if they're technically only allowed to craft one of any item unless they get specific approval to craft a second and so forth from a mod.

[Velspera]

As an addition: I've already spoken my piece on the prop, but I'll simplify since the voting is over.

+Class Prop as Guidelines only
+The inclusion of Alignment-Oriented OR Class-Oriented character evolution
++Blair's suggestion of mod-approved character sheets using these guidelines as a foundation

[Kamimaia]

Given the limited amount of A-list items, class and alignment evolution is simply not feasible at this juncture of Terraria. Implementing such things at this date would only result in all individuals carrying look-alike equipment. A possibility once more items have been released- another option is simply rounding out the classes/alignments that are already listed, such as Cobalt Armor going to Ocean/Blue Knights and whatnot.

Class Prop as guidelines only would mean that characters would still be carrying exact equipment regardless of class, unless mods were to closely monitor them.

Mod-approved character sheets would require an expansion on application requirements for the server, and claims of 'unfairness' among the populous for any perceived favoritism or slight (they already do that when an app isn't approved).

Restricting quantity of items allowed for creation is hardly enforceable.

Accessories and Armor are, frankly, a bigger issue than weapons IMO (everyone has at least one pair of rocket boots)- assigning armor and accessories a 'type' along with weapons is going to be nigh-impossible with the sheer low number of them.

Best case scenario is that the situation polices itself- NO ONE wants to be a mod 24/7, and most of the suggestions so far require such.

[Velspera]

Given the limited amount of A-list items, class and alignment evolution is simply not feasible at this juncture of Terraria. Implementing such things at this date would only result in all individuals carrying look-alike equipment. A possibility once more items have been released- another option is simply rounding out the classes/alignments that are already listed, such as Cobalt Armor going to Ocean/Blue Knights and whatnot.

I can argue the exact opposite thing.  Not giving people the option to choose which specialization they want forces them into a rut.  Not all people are after high-tier armor and weaponry.  Not all characters really give a damn about fighting and instead would rather be adventuring, building, and interacting with other players.  For characters like that, honing a character with accessories that are meant to aid them in non-pvp activities is a better choice.  The prop, as it is, is built for people who are playing to fight, which helps some but limits others. 

Also, 'look-alike' equipment isn't really something you can argue for since a lot of people use vanity items in the first place and I doubt players who are more builder than fighter would really care if their equip was similar.  They have a different purpose.

Class Prop as guidelines only would mean that characters would still be carrying exact equipment regardless of class, unless mods were to closely monitor them.

Mod-approved character sheets would require an expansion on application requirements for the server, and claims of 'unfairness' among the populous for any perceived favoritism or slight (they already do that when an app isn't approved).

If mods are reasonable and explain their reasons for accepting or denying anything on an application I don't see why it matters.  The answer is simple:

If a player doesn't like one mod's decision, they can get a second opinion from an entirely different mod.  If that second mod sees the exact same problem, then the issue is over.  The person needs to think things through better because they probably either didn't explain it well enough or are trying to be OP.

And character equipment apps aren't just a reason for mods to keep equipment use in check.  It's a way that would allow players to REALLY get an understanding of how they're outfitting their characters.

Restricting quantity of items allowed for creation is hardly enforceable.

This is probably true...  EDIT: No, this is absolutely true. XD

Accessories and Armor are, frankly, a bigger issue than weapons IMO (everyone has at least one pair of rocket boots)- assigning armor and accessories a 'type' along with weapons is going to be nigh-impossible with the sheer low number of them.

Best case scenario is that the situation polices itself- NO ONE wants to be a mod 24/7, and most of the suggestions so far require such.

Issues with accessories and armor wouldn't be a problem if people properly explained why they're using them in the first place, hence why I support the application process.

We'd end up needing some formal way of keeping up with the class and alignment people choose along with all of their extra items unless every mod plans on simply memorizing all of that information and filing it away in their heads.  Either way: It's going to be work.

[Velspera]

Another point I disagree with:

Potions separated by class.  Potions are meant for drinking.  Anyone can open a bottle and drink a potion, unless their character has a reason to not be able to.  (Ex: Vai not being to ingest potions made with ingredients from corruption.)

Maybe there needs to be a reason as to why someone can MAKE a potion, but not use it.  If it's to be argued that they count as spells, that makes no sense.  If it was meant to be a spell, it'd be a spell item.  I know it probably took a long time to think through the potion list and figure out where they fit in all the classes, but I don't agree with them being restricted in the slightest.

[Souless Dark]

I find myself agreeing with Velspera's points.


Edit: My apologies, I was just throwing my voice out there so you would all know that I'm still here, since I haven't been on in the while because I've been busy with something else recently. I didn't want anyone thinking I left the server.

[Lord_Blair]

I find myself agreeing with Velspera's points.

Finally, some other people post, so its not just a battle of the mods and gingerbread. So. From now on, you don't comment when you vote about what you like or don't like in ANY poll, we will not count it.

[Plunger]

Another point I disagree with:

Potions separated by class.  Potions are meant for drinking.  Anyone can open a bottle and drink a potion, unless their character has a reason to not be able to.  (Ex: Vai not being to ingest potions made with ingredients from corruption.)

Maybe there needs to be a reason as to why someone can MAKE a potion, but not use it.  If it's to be argued that they count as spells, that makes no sense.  If it was meant to be a spell, it'd be a spell item.  I know it probably took a long time to think through the potion list and figure out where they fit in all the classes, but I don't agree with them being restricted in the slightest.

I don't think it's do with realism, as much as balance, if everyone regardless of class can chug down all the potions no matter what, people would be flying in the air all the time.

[Velspera]

Another point I disagree with:

Potions separated by class.  Potions are meant for drinking.  Anyone can open a bottle and drink a potion, unless their character has a reason to not be able to.  (Ex: Vai not being to ingest potions made with ingredients from corruption.)

Maybe there needs to be a reason as to why someone can MAKE a potion, but not use it.  If it's to be argued that they count as spells, that makes no sense.  If it was meant to be a spell, it'd be a spell item.  I know it probably took a long time to think through the potion list and figure out where they fit in all the classes, but I don't agree with them being restricted in the slightest.

I don't think it's do with realism, as much as balance, if everyone regardless of class can chug down all the potions no matter what, people would be flying in the air all the time.

There's realism in being able to drink potions.  However, there isn't realism in everyone automatically being able to make them without proper training. 

I know it's kind of hard to enforce a rule where people can and cannot make certain potions, but telling people they can't drink something just because they're not part of a certain class doesn't make much sense. 

If I see a bottle sitting on a table  and can uncork it, I'm going to drink it.  Yeah, there could be consequences.  I could catch fire.  I could turn inside out.  But, there is no supreme force keeping me from ingesting it.

I think Isaki (who, sadly, hasn't been active in a while) had the right idea.  She basically played an alchemist, but restricted her character so that she didn't take part in combat, and ran a potion shop near the eastern edge of the map, much like the new store in the middle of the town.  But, she specialized.  No weapons, no supplies, no materials: Just potions.  Her prices were reasonable and people could get whatever they needed there.

But, since pretty  much everyone on the server fancies themselves a surpreme alchemist, it detracts from the actual realism.

[Syndraell]

this stuff is a little oddly balanced.

needs to be more like Order/Freedom based.
Sure, anyone can get said item or said weapon, but it needs to have something with a little more flare.
items like the blade of grass, and other higher tiered weapons and armor need to be earned. Like how you had to have authorization to use certain items.

and we all love our PVP battles. so, Rights Tournaments.
and i mean this more as the ability to use said item.
Still thinking of certain rules. Will try to make a balance everyone can agree on.

[Cpt.Gingerbeard]

I find myself agreeing with Velspera's points.

Finally, some other people post, so its not just a battle of the mods and gingerbread. So. From now on, you don't comment when you vote about what you like or don't like in ANY poll, we will not count it.

i find your commnet highly amusing

Another point I disagree with:

Potions separated by class.  Potions are meant for drinking.  Anyone can open a bottle and drink a potion, unless their character has a reason to not be able to.  (Ex: Vai not being to ingest potions made with ingredients from corruption.)

Maybe there needs to be a reason as to why someone can MAKE a potion, but not use it.  If it's to be argued that they count as spells, that makes no sense.  If it was meant to be a spell, it'd be a spell item.  I know it probably took a long time to think through the potion list and figure out where they fit in all the classes, but I don't agree with them being restricted in the slightest.

I don't think it's do with realism, as much as balance, if everyone regardless of class can chug down all the potions no matter what, people would be flying in the air all the time.

There's realism in being able to drink potions.  However, there isn't realism in everyone automatically being able to make them without proper training. 

I know it's kind of hard to enforce a rule where people can and cannot make certain potions, but telling people they can't drink something just because they're not part of a certain class doesn't make much sense. 

If I see a bottle sitting on a table  and can uncork it, I'm going to drink it.  Yeah, there could be consequences.  I could catch fire.  I could turn inside out.  But, there is no supreme force keeping me from ingesting it.

I think Isaki (who, sadly, hasn't been active in a while) had the right idea.  She basically played an alchemist, but restricted her character so that she didn't take part in combat, and ran a potion shop near the eastern edge of the map, much like the new store in the middle of the town.  But, she specialized.  No weapons, no supplies, no materials: Just potions.  Her prices were reasonable and people could get whatever they needed there.

But, since pretty  much everyone on the server fancies themselves a surpreme alchemist, it detracts from the actual realism.

you make this all under the asumption that we have to roleplay potions as potions- if i have to consede the point that spears can be roleplayed as stalves and space GUNS as spells then potions could be conceived as "skills". One could verry easily roleplay potions as skills which can only be used after having completed some sort of regent gathering ritual.
Now altho one can roleplay anything as anything (I refuse to let go of the space gun thing :P ) one cannot enfource rules on items like potions with any real affect, most of the items are passive and can only be seen by the person in question anyhow (night owl for example)- and subsequently, unless the affect is obviouse, you cant stop people who use night owl outside of it class.
Hooooooooowever  potions are not that big of a deal. To be honest most people on the server only use 4 types of potions anyhow- splunking, gravi, obsidien, luminecense. All other potions usually gather dust on shelves with occasional use.

[INA7HAN]

I agree with the potion stuff that it can't be made by anyone but can be used. And only thing i can see that i don't like is that the knight can't use magic mirror since it's magic based .Since i'm a knight it gets annoying if i get stuck somewhere. I just think maybe the only magic a knight can use is magic mirror (Maybe has to have been trained how to use it icly by a mage)As i have been stuck before now with no enemies in sight to kill me.

[fordwell]

Agreed: Perhaps Magic Mirror should be an all classes item.

[Kamimaia]

I agree with the potion stuff that it can't be made by anyone but can be used. And only thing i can see that i don't like is that the knight can't use magic mirror since it's magic based .Since i'm a knight it gets annoying if i get stuck somewhere. I just think maybe the only magic a knight can use is magic mirror (Maybe has to have been trained how to use it icly by a mage)As i have been stuck before now with no enemies in sight to kill me.

Agreed: Perhaps Magic Mirror should be an all classes item.

It IS a universally allowed item. It is LISTED under 'universally allowed items'. It has been listed there since day 1. There has never been a moment when Magic Mirror was not universally allowed for ALL characters, ALL alignments, and ALL classes. Look at the list on the VERY FIRST POST OF THIS THREAD before you simply assume something isn't allowed. ffs.

i find your commnet highly amusing

I find your comment highly irritating, as Blair is correct. I also won't be able to read anything you suggest until you find and figure out a spellcheck option. Figure it out.

The Prop being posted as rules is on hold at the moment, as I am FINALLY getting input, even if I don't agree with all of it- its about damn time. If what you are suggesting requires a whole rewrite of the prop using a different system, I suggest you post an example of that you mean.

[Cpt.Gingerbeard]

i find your commnet highly amusing

I find your comment highly irritating, as Blair is correct. I also won't be able to read anything you suggest until you find and figure out a spellcheck option. Figure it out.


the comment was directed at him making a refrece to me.... but nice to see the red mist as settled -Thanks for the obvious information. I wasn't aware you intended your flamebait comment to not be handled by mods, as is our responsibility. Next time I will simply delete your messages, without reasons as to why. You should be able to figure it out, right? This is a serious discussion. If you feel a statement or idea is valueless, give reasons as to why. 'I find your comment highly amusing' is not a constructive response. -Kamimaia.

[Khyris]

I just thought of something moments ago here but let's say for an example that if we change it so that the classes/alignments that have things like Molten armor/Jungle armor to where they have the ability to use the silver/gold part that they need to craft the armor set for their class/alignment, it'll make things somewhat easier to gather materials in the jungle/hell wearing something better than copper armor.
I can see the unbalanced bit where like blue/ocean alignment has gold armor for the classes that can use it but can't advance to a higher tier of armor, which does make it kinda unfair for the other alignments and i could assume people would most likely lead to complain and whatnot.
So even im not 100% yeah about this change but you might be able to find a way to counter the unbalanced part where i didn't.

[Velspera]

you make this all under the asumption that we have to roleplay potions as potions

Yes, but the prop is also making the assumption that we CAN'T just roleplay potions as exactly what they are.  I don't care if someone wants to pretend that when they drink a shine potion they're actually casting an illumination spell on themselves, covered their body in neon lights, or whatever. Let them go crazy.  But, the prop shouldn't make it harder for people who just want to use the potions as they are.

And who cares if people drink down a gravity potion.  It's a freaking potion.  What matters is whether the character MADE the potion that they're drinking without proper alchemical skills, unless they have some other valid explanation behind having the ability to craft it.

[Safianna]

My one suggestion is less to do with the mechanics of the game and more with this thread itself.

The initial post should probably be broken up by class rather than by alignment. This has already been suggested, but I figured I would second it. It would make for slightly easier browsing.

Start with the universal list, then the class restrictions, then the class alignment.

So,
Universal

Mage restrict.
Mage align.

Chemist restrict.
Chemist align.

And so forth.
Other than that, the list seems fairly balanced. How to enforce it? The players of the server should be mature and responsible enough to abide by it. Simple as that.

[Cpt.Gingerbeard]

you make this all under the asumption that we have to roleplay potions as potions

Yes, but the prop is also making the assumption that we CAN'T just roleplay potions as exactly what they are.  I don't care if someone wants to pretend that when they drink a shine potion they're actually casting an illumination spell on themselves, covered their body in neon lights, or whatever. Let them go crazy.  But, the prop shouldn't make it harder for people who just want to use the potions as they are.

And who cares if people drink down a gravity potion.  It's a freaking potion.  What matters is whether the character MADE the potion that they're drinking without proper alchemical skills, unless they have some other valid explanation behind having the ability to craft it.

I find it quite amusing that the issue of potions represents the issue of roleplay in general rather well- there seems to be a fine line between roleplay and actual item use and i suppose it would be prudent to adress that issue  sooner rather than later. should we roleplay items as other objects or simply use them in the manner the game intended to? (perhaps a seperate thread entierly to descuss this as, altho it affects the class prop  it's a topic by itself also) As far as the issue of potions is concerned i find my self leaning towards velsps side (despite my earlier comments) however i also find a lack of realism in people being able to make some potions and not others, if you have the skills to make a gravi potion then why not a feather fall? I personaly hold the opinion that either potions should be craftable by all classes or just one.

[Velspera]

you make this all under the asumption that we have to roleplay potions as potions

Yes, but the prop is also making the assumption that we CAN'T just roleplay potions as exactly what they are.  I don't care if someone wants to pretend that when they drink a shine potion they're actually casting an illumination spell on themselves, covered their body in neon lights, or whatever. Let them go crazy.  But, the prop shouldn't make it harder for people who just want to use the potions as they are.

And who cares if people drink down a gravity potion.  It's a freaking potion.  What matters is whether the character MADE the potion that they're drinking without proper alchemical skills, unless they have some other valid explanation behind having the ability to craft it.

I find it quite amusing that the issue of potions represents the issue of roleplay in general rather well- there seems to be a fine line between roleplay and actual item use and i suppose it would be prudent to adress that issue  sooner rather than later. should we roleplay items as other objects or simply use them in the manner the game intended to? (perhaps a seperate thread entierly to descuss this as, altho it affects the class prop  it's a topic by itself also) As far as the issue of potions is concerned i find my self leaning towards velsps side (despite my earlier comments) however i also find a lack of realism in people being able to make some potions and not others, if you have the skills to make a gravi potion then why not a feather fall? I personaly hold the opinion that either potions should be craftable by all classes or just one.

Potions like health potions (and possibly mana, depending on the class) would probably be okay for anyone to craft.  Most of the characters in Caphori have probably been on their own for a wile and even if they are new to the lands, they're going to need to learn how to make them to survive.  Other potions, however, aren't necessities.  They're useful, but players aren't going to die without them.  Creation of potions like that should be restricted to chemist-class players, who can sell them.

Or, creating an mod-played NPC character that basically just crafts and sells potions.  Players can bring their ingredients to the chemist and have them craft them FOR them at a nominal cost...or buy them flat out for a much higher cost. 

[Souless Dark]

As far as the issue of potions is concerned i find my self leaning towards velsps side (despite my earlier comments) however i also find a lack of realism in people being able to make some potions and not others, if you have the skills to make a gravi potion then why not a feather fall? I personaly hold the opinion that either potions should be craftable by all classes or just one.

Think of it like cooking. Preparing each dish perfectly requires knowledge, experience, and the proper ingredients to make. So if you know how to make one dish because you've read the recipe, and you have the ingredients, but have never tried, you might end up failing because you lack the experience. Each dish is difficult in it's own right, likewise, each potion is difficult in it's own right as well.

[Ragolution]

This is silly.