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D33tly · 5414

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D33tly

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on: 08-05-2012
Hey, first post here cause I wanted people to talk seriously about this. What are your thoughts on communism? Can what is written down on paper be pulled off in real life?

Personally, I think Communism is a good idea on paper. I don't think it can be pulled off in real life due to human nature. Communism, to put it bluntly and to my knowledge, is about equality. Everyone is equal, and everyone receives equal. Due to greed and corruption, usually by high up officials, the entire system degrades and fails over time.

(P.S. I am nowhere near an expert on the subject, and have only read the manifesto and read some things online about communism, please correct m if I am wrong.)



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Reply #1 on: 08-05-2012
Not to mention there is literally no motivation for innovation and hard work. Since everyone is supposed to be equal.

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D33tly

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Reply #2 on: 08-05-2012
Not to mention there is literally no motivation for innovation and hard work. Since everyone is supposed to be equal.
This too, though after the government muscles past their generation, they can teach the kids whatever the hell they want. So they could teach them that it is a sin to not work, and they will be forever damned or something.
(Also, sorry if that offended anyone if you don't believe in an afterlife.)



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Reply #3 on: 08-05-2012
You want to know why Communism will never work? It's a fucking HASSLE for me to do my homework. A hassle to get up and out of bed in the morning because I'm so tired. With today's youth, and some of the "adults" today that we're too damn lazy to work towards a common goal in our nation, and to share everything.

It's also important to note that if we get the least bit of freedom, a fight for more will start. Not to mention a lot of communism causes poverty throughout the populace, which is why it always fails. There are no bourgeoisie in the political system of Communism, and without our insane amounts of money, the world just seems to stop.

If we don't have the freedom of private enterprise, we'll drive ourselves insane with greed.

Is Communism good? If you modified Leninism.
Is Communism bad? Pfft no.
Would Communism work today? Most definitely not.

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jaik

Reply #4 on: 08-05-2012
This thread is pretty vague on how we define communism. Do you mean Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, Leninism, Trotskyism or Stalinism?
A debate starts with defining what is being debated.

Not to mention there is literally no motivation for innovation and hard work. Since everyone is supposed to be equal.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. Is money supposed to motivate you? The equality statement doesn't seem to have a connection with your previous sentence.

You want to know why Communism will never work? It's a fucking HASSLE for me to do my homework. A hassle to get up and out of bed in the morning because I'm so tired.

Woah, what?

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Tom

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Reply #5 on: 08-05-2012
People are motivated by rewards is what I meant. Where everything is equally divided, there isn't any rewards.

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Spades_Neil

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Reply #6 on: 08-05-2012
The traditional idea of Communism, if we follow the ideals of Karl Marx, there's a very simple reason why it won't work.

Does money motivate people? Yes. Would they not be motivated without money? Who is to say? That misses the point of what I'm about to state;



Marxist ideals are based off the idea that human beings are rational, kindhearted, civilized beings by nature. We aren't. We just aren't. Capitalism has had more success than Communism over the centuries due to one simple fact; Capitalism punishes those who fuck up. Provided there's certainly a significant level of unfairness to Capitalism, because sometimes one person has everything and the other has nothing. People reject Communism however because two people will have the same, but both these greedy bastards will want more, and Communism won't allow more, so neither of them end up happy.

Communism is a fantastic idea that is horrible in practice. Often times communism today degrades into fascist regimes. Of course, given free Capitalism, or Libertarianism in its truest form, we'd have a similar disaster of corporations controlling everything instead of the govern--oh wait that's already happening.




Basically, Capitalism isn't perfect, but if properly, fairly regulated, is still a potentially successful system that has spawned much success in the past.
"ISM" 1948 Cartoon Explains Capitalism and Class Warfare


Communism has too much potential to be abused. History shows this.



jaik

Reply #7 on: 08-05-2012
I never really even take Marxist ideas seriously. How could you? If OP wanted to debate about Marx's theory then this thread is over because Spades just said it.

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Reply #8 on: 08-05-2012
Oh god it seems we get this Communism vs. Capitalism thing every month...


Communism is good on paper, just terrible as it was applied. Many many people were jailed and Lubyanka Prison became their home. These people were considered "Enemies of the State" and "Foreign Spies", ect. ect. and it took people three days before they could reach the Prison doors to speak to their loved ones, only for most to find out they were dead. Children, teens, parents, even babies sometimes were imprisoned. Some were orphaned and raised if their parents were taken.



Paintcheck

Reply #9 on: 08-05-2012
Communism is only good "on paper" if you completely ignore human nature. People are naturally selfish, just like all animals.



jaik

Reply #10 on: 08-05-2012
Many many people were jailed and Lubyanka Prison became their home. These people were considered "Enemies of the State" and "Foreign Spies", ect. ect. and it took people three days before they could reach the Prison doors to speak to their loved ones, only for most to find out they were dead. Children, teens, parents, even babies sometimes were imprisoned. Some were orphaned and raised if their parents were taken.


man what the fuck are you talking about
lubyanka was only for the most elite prisoners ever and then again i'm not quite sure what are you trying to say with that.

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Reply #11 on: 08-05-2012
Communism is an elegant solution to society. Humans are not elegant, we are about as far from it as you can get. They're incompatible.



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Reply #12 on: 09-05-2012
Communism isn't the USSR, so please stop acting like it is. It started out partially Marxist before Lenin made it more towards the right, and Stalin just made it whatever the peasents wanted to keep power.

No one has made an actual communist society.



jaik

Reply #13 on: 09-05-2012
Communism isn't the USSR, so please stop acting like it is. It started out partially Marxist before Lenin made it more towards the right, and Stalin just made it whatever the peasents wanted to keep power.

No one has made an actual communist society.

Exactly what am I trying to say.

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Reply #14 on: 09-05-2012
Communism is like utopia. It can only exist on paper.

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Spades_Neil

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Reply #15 on: 09-05-2012
Communism isn't the USSR, so please stop acting like it is. It started out partially Marxist before Lenin made it more towards the right, and Stalin just made it whatever the peasents wanted to keep power.

No one has made an actual communist society.

Communism is like utopia. It can only exist on paper.

Precisely.

Maybe one day humans will socially and intellectually evolve to a point where Communism is possible. Today, however, is not that day. Communism is one of those things I feel like simply cannot be forced by a change of regime. It's something that everyone has to agree upon on their own, and it will be a matter of a long transformation over generations--not years. When the changes finally are realized, it'll barely be noticed how far they've come.

That being said, this is just a silly utopian dream. Certainly won't happen in my lifetime. Probably won't happen at all. One can dream I suppose that we can all just get along.
« Last Edit: 09-05-2012 by Spades_Neil »



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Reply #16 on: 09-05-2012
Communism isn't the USSR, so please stop acting like it is. It started out partially Marxist before Lenin made it more towards the right, and Stalin just made it whatever the peasents wanted to keep power.

No one has made an actual communist society.

Communism is like utopia. It can only exist on paper.

Precisely.


Uh.
No.

Communism means you own: Nothing
Means you are worth: Less than nothing
And your rights?  Better. Sometimes. In som cases.

The USSR as run by Stalin was War Communism. It was Capitalism with the Red Sticker of Approval slapped on it.
Marxism and Leninism ask for equality in all things.
 The problem with that is no one wants to be equal. So yeah, you're right in saying Communism hasn't be done on a large scale.

Tribes in Mongolia practiced Communism until roughly the 1200s when their populations grew too huge.
And even that wasn't REAL communism, but it was possibly the best, most accurate example you can get.
( I didn't fact-check this, but I remember reading some history about this/them/that. I could very well be wrong and acknowledge that. )

If we are all equal, who is the leader? We're all leaders? Then I should have my own country. Fuck this shit.
And then the government comes in and kills me, which is fascism and incites fear pretty powerfully.

Communism also, as mentioned, lacks the whole "motivation" thing.

Capitalism at its worst becomes a Corporatocracy.
Everyone is a cog in the economic machine. They only exist to consume, died and reproduce (and also fight wars).

Communism at its worst is either bloody fucking chaos or a giant Herd of humanity.
If you think Communism is a good idea, I'd like you to read a few books by good old Friedrich Nietzsche.
Think capitalism is a good idea? Read some Immanuel Kant.

As the video says, Capitalism isn't perfect, but it's pretty damn good. (And wow that's a great video).

The whole idea of a Social Contract is what made and makes America different from other places in the world. (especially theoretical Communist societies and Monarchies). We give away some of our rights in place of safety. The keyword there is some. Communism, Libertarianism and Socialism demand all of your rights in exchange for the government guiding you in everything. Creativity dies when duty is everything to everyone.

Like I said. Read some Nietzsche.

You can say 'it only works on paper' but you don't get what that REALLY means.
Communism can work in small groups. 20 or 30 people. Any more than that and it falls apart.
Communism also fails after 2 generations, when the children's children have either no or limited worth ethic.
Before you say "Train them to have work ethic"
That's nazism. It's fascism subset and it's a great system. But it's not Communism.

I don't even know why I'm posting this.

Spades and everyone else this applies, you're retarded, communism sucks and can never work.
People who are okay with Capitalism but think it can probably be improved, carry on.

Meritocracies ftw



jaik

Reply #17 on: 09-05-2012
pile of shit

you should probably read what is national socialism and fascism before stating that something is equal to it. communism in its pure form is impossible with the current way we think, however saying that all of its branches suck and don't work means you don't know much about it(and ideologies in general, as i witnessed.)

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Ragolution

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Reply #18 on: 09-05-2012
A quote Jake decided to go all ad hominem fallacy on.

you should probably read what is national socialism and fascism before stating that something is equal to it. communism in its pure form is impossible with the current way we think, however saying that all of its branches suck and don't work means you don't know much about it(and ideologies in general, as i witnessed.)

I've read the manifesto, if you think I haven't or something.
Communism is impossible for several reasons.
I've studied Stalinism and Marxism, even a little Troskyism which is actually feasible compared to barrel-down marxism.
Communism, in all forms, demands equality.
No one wants to be equal. It's human nature. We want to be better.
There's other reasons I could divulge but I'm pretty tired of fighting upstream battles (today was awful.)

When it comes down to it, Communism will never work. Ever.
There's not enough 'everything' to give everyone their own little 'chunk' of it.
National socialism is real fuckin' neato if you like being told how to run your life. Sure it's not nearly as bad as a corpratocracy but it's still really annoying to imagine the government deciding what job you do for the rest of your life.
Sure it's better for the whole, but the individual suffers.
Economics, and politics, are all about balance. You can't be too one way or the other. You have to be juuuust riiiiight.
« Last Edit: 09-05-2012 by Ragolution »



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Reply #19 on: 09-05-2012
Rago, you said the biggest pile of shit I've ever read. Staling wasn't using true war communism either, Trotsky was the one who pushed for a total state of war communism. Stalin on the other hand was in the center, and shifted to a side when he felt it was popular, he only sided with kaminev and. Zinoviev because he need the support of the left to take Bumharin down which he finally did by abusing lenins ban on factionalism. After that though he immediately went back to the center, and kicked Trotsky out of the country and banned his books, the only things of note he took was grain requisitioning, and punishing the 'Kulaks' which didnt even really exist. Please everyone, stop using the USSR as an example, they didn't use communism at any point that was true communism.

If your evidence that communism doesn't work is the USSR you've already lost the argument.
« Last Edit: 09-05-2012 by Plunger »



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Reply #20 on: 09-05-2012
Many many people were jailed and Lubyanka Prison became their home. These people were considered "Enemies of the State" and "Foreign Spies", ect. ect. and it took people three days before they could reach the Prison doors to speak to their loved ones, only for most to find out they were dead. Children, teens, parents, even babies sometimes were imprisoned. Some were orphaned and raised if their parents were taken.


man what the fuck are you talking about
lubyanka was only for the most elite prisoners ever and then again i'm not quite sure what are you trying to say with that.

During the Soviet times many many many people were brought to Lubyanka. Lubyanka wasn't for elite prisoners, it was just larger. If you went against the State, accidentally or not, you were immediately an Enemy of the State and you were put into a prison. Lubyanka wasn't for elite prisoners, it was for anyone. Many people were put there simply because of their race. They were considered foreign spies even if they weren't doing anything suspicious. The State literally watched their every move and the second they did something that was minutely suspicious they were branded spies and thrown into Lubyanka. Even "Wreckers" or people who damaged State property (Which was everything) in the slightest way were thrown in Lubyanka. Not to mention Age wasn't a factor. It didn't decide what prison you were put in.

Example, a thirteen year old boy accidentally falls over and knocks over a bust of Stalin and breaks a small part. That is destruction of State property. He is a "Wrecker" and is eventually caught and put into Lubyanka simply because it's closer.

Now tell me how Elite is that?
« Last Edit: 09-05-2012 by Corocan »



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Reply #21 on: 09-05-2012

You want to know why Communism will never work? It's a fucking HASSLE for me to do my homework. A hassle to get up and out of bed in the morning because I'm so tired.

Woah, what?

I'm a lazy bastard when it comes to work.

Forgot about Marxism, didn't really take it into consideration.

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Paintcheck

Reply #22 on: 09-05-2012
ITT: We all try to one-up each other with our innate knowledge of Communism vs. Marxism vs. Leninism vs. Who-gives-a-fuck-ism.

Christ guys. You're all agreeing with each other ("Communism is nice in theory but impossible in practice") and then arguing about semantics. NO ONE FUCKING CARES



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Reply #23 on: 09-05-2012
ITT: We all try to one-up each other with our innate knowledge of Communism vs. Marxism vs. Leninism vs. Who-gives-a-fuck-ism.

Christ guys. You're all agreeing with each other ("Communism is nice in theory but impossible in practice") and then arguing about semantics. NO ONE FUCKING CARES

No, communism isn't nice. It's horrible.



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Reply #24 on: 09-05-2012
ITT: We all try to one-up each other with our innate knowledge of Communism vs. Marxism vs. Leninism vs. Who-gives-a-fuck-ism.

Christ guys. You're all agreeing with each other ("Communism is nice in theory but impossible in practice") and then arguing about semantics. NO ONE FUCKING CARES

No, communism isn't nice. It's horrible.
Equal rights for all, and a stable economy, sounds shitty.



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