Tweaking/fixing faction character alignment. Good Vs Evil, Order Vs Chaos.

[Spades_Neil]

Last.Exile/Silver Knight has given me the green light to do what I think can help improve the Fallout RP server. I've been discussing it with a few others, including Tom, who think it'd be a good idea to tweak the mentality of some of the main factions.

I'm about to get into a debate about how our factions fall in along character alignment between Good, Evil, Order, and Chaos. None of this is ever going to be forced on any of you except the main factions' leaders. Anyone who's played D&D or written a serious story knows what this is all about. Not all good characters follow the rules. Not all evil characters break the rules. Not all characters are good guys, but not the bad guys either. Some follow the rules and mind their own business while others are looking out for themselves--though that doesn't mean they're hurting anyone along the way, although they could be. Have I confused you yet? You're not foaming at the mouth, and I assume you're still reading, so let's continue.

What I have here consists of two links and one visual example to demonstrate what I'm getting at. One of the links fully details what character alinement is, and the next link shows what your character alignment is.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterAlignment <- Character Alignment details
http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/javalign.html <- Quiz
My main character, Senior Paladin J. Spades Neil scored "Neutral Good" on this little quiz.

Now, here's basically what I'm looking to do: I want to make at least one faction, either official or playerbased, to fill each of these slots. Provided individual characters within these factions may go all over these charts, we want the factions as a whole to fill something here. Here's what we've got at the moment.

This is how things currently are.
Lawful Good - Storms' End, Brotherhood of Steel
Neutral Good - Blank
Chaotic Good - Blank
Lawful Neutral - Blank
True Neutral - Kira's Karbines
Chaotic Neutral - Storms' End Overwatch
Lawful Evil - Blank
Neutral Evil - Blank
Chaotic Evil - Enclave, Institute, Raiders
(I have no idea where to put Sheer Side on this list because my only experience with them is Plunger's character Morgan, who has proven strongly to be Chaotic Good.)

Some people don't like this setup. I don't either. So let's tweak it. Before anything becomes official, I want your input on what matters should really be. It'd be idiotic to just do it without asking the community what they think.

Now before I go further, for those of you who don't understand this chart, I'll explain briefly. To the rest, just skip ahead until you see the new list.

Good vs Evil
This is pretty goddamn straightforward. Are you ultimately the good guy, bad guy, or the guy who doesn't care as long as he's left to his own business?
Order vs. Chaos
This isn't so straightforward, but I'll sum it up quickly. Do you play by the rules or break every rule in the book? Do you break some rules while preserving others? Do you pride yourself with honor, or do you not give a shit what it takes to get what you want? Or do you fall somewhere in between? Basically, are you lawful, following the rules? Or are you chaotic, doing whatever it takes with complete disregard for the rules? Or do you only bend the rules, which would make you neutral on this axis? I hope it makes a little more sense now.


So without further adieu, here's what I theorize the factions should look like.
However, I want your input. I could make a completely horrible choice that everyone hates and that would ruin everything now wouldn't it? So let's get some opinions up in here.

This is how I think they should be, and I want your input.
Lawful Good - Storms' End
Neutral Good - Blank
Chaotic Good - Blank
Lawful Neutral - Brotherhood of Steel, Storms' End Overwatch*
True Neutral - Kira's Karbines, Sheer Side**
Chaotic Neutral - Mercenaries
Lawful Evil - Enclave
Neutral Evil - Institute
Chaotic Evil - Raiders
*I think any town guard does better as lawful for obvious reasons.
**Plunger informs me that Sheer Side is intended to be 'True Neutral' and proved his point on Steam, so I changed it.


From a writer's standpoint, our current setup is boring. It's too cliche`. Too stale. People lose interest because of it. Thus I plan to make the following changes.

• Storms' End: A sanctuary for most wastelanders. The most active town currently in FORP. This is just where I feel their alignment lies after seeing them boldly take on raiders and bandits, even if it's a little suicidal at times.
• Brotherhood of Steel: This might be 2278, but this isn't Fallout 3 where the BoS are a bunch of pathetic, cushy, heroic knights in shining armor come to save the wasteland from the horrors of super mutants, raiders, Enclave, mean people, paper cuts, other nasty stuff... *SNOOOORRREEE* Yea this is dumb. BoS are the good guys, no one is arguing that, but they're also not going to save every poor bastard that comes their way. Occasionally, they will cap a bitch if they feel threatened.
• Storms' End Overwatch: Not to be confused with Storms' End its self, the Overwatch, while unfortunately named (due to people constantly bitching about HL2's overwatch), is none the less the town guard for all intents and purposes. Assuming they're doing their job as they should, then they are lawful neutral.
• Kira's Karbines: You need guns? She sells guns. Savior of the Wasteland or King of the Raiders, she doesn't care who or what you use those guns on--so long as it isn't her or anyone working for her. Her company won't bother you, but if you do put in enough effort to piss her off, she will fucking kill you.
• Sheer Side: Plunger would be a better person to talk to about this one, but after hearing how they tortured Dave and later PKed his character, they're most certainly chaotic. But are they evil? Hell no. They did it to protect themselves from threats Dave was making, to eliminate Dave as a power hungry warmonger in the Overwatch, and to knock off a possible Enclave informant. Was Dave really a warmonger? Possibly. Did he beat his girlfriend? Yea, he did. Was he working with the Enclave? No idea. Regardless, Sheer Side at least thought they were doing the right thing. It's debatable if they were, but this earns their title of Chaotic Good. Plunger made his point on Steam. They're not out to hurt anyone, but not out to take sides either. 'True Neutral' it is!
• Mercenaries: This isn't so much a faction as it is a collection of players calling themselves mercs. They do what you pay them for. No more, no less.
• Enclave: Former United States military. Highly disciplined soldiers. Incredibly well armed. Even more well protected... Of course they don't give two fucks about you. They won't waste their time with civilian casualties, but you better hope you're not a civilian in possession of (what they consider) their technology. Filthy waster hands can't have that kind of stuff! They probably won't kill you on the spot, but they will arrest you if they find reason for it. Maybe if you're good and keep your mouth shut, they'll spare your life and just destroy the technology you have. Then again, if you try to stop them, they will find it to be cause for lethal force.
• The Institute: I had a lot of trouble deciding what the Institute does, mainly because I have no fucking clue what the Institute does. Originally, when we first rebuilt the canon for the Fallout RP server, they were going to fall into the category of 'Chaotic Neutral' where they wouldn't side with the Brotherhood or the Enclave--but rather continue in their pursuits for science (regardless of how inhumane those pursuits are) in order to preserve science and the scientific minds associated with it. Then again I find it hard to justify slavery when some of the things they create become sentient and have to escape the Institute, so I just don't think being 'Chaotic Neutral' works anymore. Instead I think they'd be better if we kept their sanity, but allowed their intents to be more selfish. In short, "Why allow the Enclave or the Brotherhood to use our technology? Survival of the fittest, gentlemen. We preserve our own and no one else. You all should well know; brains always defeats brawn." And before anyone starts complaining about it being uncanon, you tell me one canon thing about the Institute that I don't already know. Please. This faction is so mysterious and undetailed in Fallout that I could say nearly anything I want about it and it could work. However, I still want opinions. Just don't pull the canon card on me for the Institute (unless you can back it up) because it's complete BS.
• Raiders: I LOVE THE TASTE OF BLOOD! THIS IS THE PART WHERE YOU FALL DOWN AND BLEED TO DEATH! YOU'RE GONNA DIE! DIE! FUCKIN' DIE! AHAHAHAAAA!! I'M GONNA MOUNT YOU ON MY FUCKIN' WALL! BUT NOT BEFORE I BITE YOUR TESTICLES OFF AND EAT 'EM!! AND THEN I'M GONNA RAPE YA! AND THEN I'M GONNA KILL YA! (I'm sure you understand perfectly what I'm getting at...)

So, thoughts? Feelings? Opinions? No pure bitching please. If you don't like something that's fine, and I want you to tell me you don't like it, but also tell me how to improve it or no one cares what you have to say. Understood? Good. Thanks.


EDIT: I've gotten overwhelming positive feedback so far, but the only remaining criticism was people didn't like the position of the Brotherhood as Lawful Good. However, this is why I have this thread! You guys have convinced me to move BoS's desired alignment to Lawful Neutral.

[Zithra]

I would not put the BoS as Lawful Good, more of Chaotic Good. They do the right thing, but not always in the standard method.

[Spades_Neil]

I would not put the BoS as Lawful Good, more of Chaotic Good. They do the right thing, but not always in the standard method.

Yea, but they're not breaking the rules all the time. That would make them chaotic. The way I run things anyway, we bend the rules sometimes but we only do it because we have to.

[Ragolution]

I would not put the BoS as Lawful Good, more of Chaotic Good. They do the right thing, but not always in the standard method.

Yea, but they're not breaking the rules all the time. That would make them chaotic. The way I run things anyway, we bend the rules sometimes but we only do it because we have to.

BoS is more Lawful Evil than anything, it all just matters on your perspective.

There are no more laws, so the definition of a "Lawful" character is really just one that enforces some kind of rule or prefer civility.

Chaotic means they're fucking vicious and bloodthirsty

Good/Evil are obvious.

All said, BoS is probably Lawful Neutral.
In the same respect, Enclave is Lawful Evil

Like I said, it's all perspective and in some cases is victim to Bias.

An enclave character could see a BoS member as Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil whereas a waster who supports the enclave see the Enclave as Lawful Good or Neutral Good.

This is an iffy system.

[Spades_Neil]

This is an iffy system.

Every side has its story, and every story has its protagonist. You wouldn't read the story if you were the antagonist now, would you? But for sake of example, it's good for at least showing what we can change. It's certainly a step towards improvement. This system I've made, I should say, is based from the wastelander's standpoint. Pure-waster players should make their opinions heard in this thread, because I'm trying to see it from their POV.

I know your BoS was most certainly under the category of Lawful Neutral. It also worked pretty well while you were commanding it. Then again I admit I view Spades as a temporary leader, and the BoS's choices are influenced by his own alignment, which could coincide with your concerns of biasism (did I just make that word up?).

Then again, maybe Lawful Neutral didn't work all that well? I've literally had wasters handing me technology. Laser pistols, microfusion cells (which we can actually -fix- now), PDAs, USB drives, radios, etc, etc. Virtually all the tech I've seen or known to be spawned has wound back up in BoS hands for free because they like us. But that's just a matter of how I run things compared to how you run things. Maybe I'm wrong too? When a laser rifle appears, perhaps they'll want to hoard it instead of giving it up to me, where as you'd confiscate it from them.

Only time will tell. I can easily see BoS fitting the Neutral Good spot though. We'll see how the votes tally up and how opinion mounts on the subject.

[Mr. Pink]

From the point of view of Glen Pink:

Storms' End: (Lawful Good)

Overwatch: (Chaotic Neutral, To his dismay)

Sheer Side: (Chaotic Neutral)

Enclave: (Lawful Evil)

Brotherhood: (Neutral Good)

Institute: (Pure Neutral)

Kira's Karbines: (Pure Neutral, with a slight hint of Good)

I think your system's about accurate, and the views of alot of the groups are gonna differe from person to person a bit due to people having different morals. But, I feel certain groups should almost be required to act a certain way, I.E. the Enclave acting Lawful Evil. It's how they are in the canon no matter what. Now, as people have said, some groups are much more flexible in the way they act due to a lack of canon information, the prime example of this being the Institute. For these I feel it is ultimately up to the person in charge of the faction how they act. That being said, they should still not move far from their starting alignment. For example, the Institute acting like raiders would be completely retarded and vice versa.

[Maxi96203]

Why you put Enclave at Lawful Evil is beyond me.


See FO2 Intro:


Fallout 2 (HD) Intro

[Spades_Neil]

I think your system's about accurate, and the views of alot of the groups are gonna differe from person to person a bit due to people having different morals. But, I feel certain groups should almost be required to act a certain way, I.E. the Enclave acting Lawful Evil. It's how they are in the canon no matter what. Now, as people have said, some groups are much more flexible in the way they act due to a lack of canon information, the prime example of this being the Institute. For these I feel it is ultimately up to the person in charge of the faction how they act. That being said, they should still not move far from their starting alignment. For example, the Institute acting like raiders would be completely retarded and vice versa.

Speaking of the Institute, we need to get someone to build up that faction and start doing stuff with it. I think I actually prefer your idea of the Institute being pure neutral to start off, or maybe we can stick with the idea of chaotic neutral at worst. I only say neutral evil on account of their synth slaves and possibly other stuff they've created. If we follow the storyline that I wrote for the Institute as background for Spades, Kira, and Caso, where the Institute is sort of like a shadow science faction, they'd abduct people off the streets and what not. But what are they doing within that massive citadel inside Boston? Maybe they're creating a paradise! Or trying. Maybe they're trying to replicate the G.E.C.K.? Maybe they're amassing an army! Who's to say?

That's what I love about "mysterious" things in any RP. It means we can fuck with it until the official story gets attention.

Why you put Enclave at Lawful Evil is beyond me.


See FO2 Intro:


Fallout 2 (HD) Intro

As fucking brutal as that is, it's also corny as all hell and incredibly boring from a writer's standpoint. If we're going to roleplay with Enclave, they can't be souless mindless robots. Paintcheck used to be in the Enclave for instance. I'm taking Paintcheck's advice when he said that he liked the Enclave when they had an actual character to them.

But then again I could turn around and claim that the Enclave in that video are indeed lawful assuming they are following orders. I doubt they opened a vault and slaughtered its inhabitants just for the lulz. Raiders would, but Enclave wouldn't be there unless there was something IMPORTANT inside. At worst, Enclave is Neutral Evil, but I prefer Lawful Evil.

[Khorn]

Don't forget, the vaults were made for testing purposes.

So they may have been part of the live ammunition test.

[Steven :D]

I wonder why the Pavilion isn't up there.

[Steven :D]

I wonder why the Pavilion isn't up there.

After taking the quiz, I scored Neutral Evil, we have our own agenda and only help those who help us in return. If you need a Neutral Evil faction, I'm up for that.

[Maxi96203]

This isn't Virginia, kiddies.

Enclave never did and never will take prisoners unless it's for testing purposes. See: FO2

If you want to include the Enclave into this RP you best make them what they where supposed to be like when Interplay thought of the concept.

The FO3 Enclave isn't the "original" Enclave.


EDIT: When saying that, I methinks you also misunderstand the concept of the Brotherhood of Steel.


I would put them at Lawful Neutral because as of now the Brotherhood in this timeline doesn't give a shit about wastelanders, they only want tech to study.


They won't give a shit about wastelanders until the events of FO3, and then some people would break off and be BoS Outcasts doing the TRUE mission of the BoS. That's why the BoS Outcasts where giant assholes to the main protagonist in FO3.


EDIT 2: And who said RP was supposed to be fun and exciting? I'll sit through it no matter how boring it is just to get it through. You don't want to be hostile to every wastelander? Don't join the fucking Enclave. Simple as that.

[jaik]

They won't give a shit about wastelanders until the events of FO3, and then some people would break off and be BoS Outcasts doing the TRUE mission of the BoS. That's why the BoS Outcasts where giant assholes to the main protagonist in FO3.

Our timeline is after FO3.

[Maxi96203]

They won't give a shit about wastelanders until the events of FO3, and then some people would break off and be BoS Outcasts doing the TRUE mission of the BoS. That's why the BoS Outcasts where giant assholes to the main protagonist in FO3.

Our timeline is after FO3.

Damn I'm out of the loop..


But anyways, it was probably only the Virginia chapter that gave two shits: See: FNV.

[Wolfinton]

Just as I expected, Jakob is Chaotic Good and leaning towards True Neutral in some aspects.

Anyway, the Enclave are 100% Lawful Evil. They are there to keep order with any cost, but in their own way. They see the Wastelanders as lawless scum and they seek to reclaim the old US. A dictator is Lawful Evil, that is what the Enclave basically is to a degree. They are very much forcing control on the wasteland but are doing it in an evil way; killing off entire populations.

Also, think about this: the Brotherhood of Steel are LE/TN. They are definetly not the good faction in the wasteland. The Brotherhood of Steel hits the Wasteland with an iron fist for its technology, killing if they need to in order to claim it. Look at why they came to the east coast: to reclaim technology. Not to help the Wastelanders. Not to help anyone but themselves. They are not good, that is for certain. Neutral they may be, it all depends on the chapter leader. If the chapter leader starts to help the Wastelanders and the other factions in the area, they have started to fail their mission and may as well rename themselves the Wastelander Brotherhood and start to recruit Wastelanders *cough*like the chapter before the wipe before the wipe*cough*.

[Spades_Neil]

I wonder why the Pavilion isn't up there.

Inactivity.

And who said RP was supposed to be fun and exciting?

Uhh, GEE, why do we roleplay then?

*facepalm*

The rest of your post though I'll pay attention to though. I'm telling you however, that the Enclave as Chaotic Evil just flat out wouldn't make any sense. Neutral or Lawful evil. Lawful not because they are "honorable" or upholding any "law" but because they are following orders.

I don't think you understand how it works.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulEvil

The Enclave are 100% Lawful Evil. They are there to keep order with any cost, but in their own way. They see the Wastelanders as lawless scum and they seek to reclaim the old US. A dictator is Lawful Evil, that is what the Enclave basically is to a degree. They are very much forcing control on the wasteland but are doing it in an evil way; killing off entire populations.

Exactly.

Also, think about this: the Brotherhood of Steel are LE/TN. They are definetly not the good faction in the wasteland. The Brotherhood of Steel hits the Wasteland with an iron fist for its technology, killing if they need to in order to claim it. Look at why they came to the east coast: to reclaim technology. Not to help the Wastelanders. Not to help anyone but themselves. They are not good, that is for certain. Neutral they may be, it all depends on the chapter leader. If the chapter leader starts to help the Wastelanders and the other factions in the area, they have started to fail their mission and may as well rename themselves the Wastelander Brotherhood and start to recruit Wastelanders *cough*like the chapter before the wipe before the wipe*cough*.

Hmm. Well for the most part I've gotten a lot of positive feedback for my ideas, but this remains a complaint. Very well. I'll consider shifting the Brotherhood over to Lawful Neutral as their desired position. I mean, the Brotherhood its self does probably suit that position more-so than Neutral Good. Spades himself is still Neutral Good, so his faction is influenced as such, but keep in mind he uses 'helping wastelanders' as a political move which has proven startlingly successful. (The Quartermaster nearly shat himself when I showed him all the tech we got from wasters for free without needing to rob them.) His ultimate goal however isn't to help the wasters directly. It's still to reclaim the technology of the wasteland. Still, Spades being a former waster himself causes him to have some sympathy. He grows sick at the idea of executing an innocent wastelander while most BoS members wouldn't bat an eyelash at the idea.

None the less, that is Spades who is neutral good. Individual characters can have whatever alignment they please, as it is out of my control. The faction however, I think you folks are right. The rest of BoS lies is now designated for Lawful Neutral.

This is exactly why I have these threads. :D

[Steven :D]

Inactivity.

Well said.

[Mr. Pink]

In the BoS Alan McRee is pretty much Lawful Neutral, he's willing to follow orders be they good or evil, as you've seen. (The execution of Jake Beilong) He occasionally may show good characteristics but overall he's neutral. He also is not a fan of wasters, considering they drove him off his ranch back in Colorado...

[Ragolution]

*cough*like the chapter before the wipe before the wipe*cough*.

There's the door, fucker.
I ran the BoS well.

[Paintcheck]

I would think Enclave would be more Neutral Evil than Lawful Evil since they tend to follow THEIR rules when dealing with people and not necessarily what the other wastelanders might say is lawful.

As for the BoS they should be the same as the Enclave. I realize the current fail canon brings things to FO3 levels of failure (and if it doesn't I don't care enough to look it up and think too hard about it so deal with it) but the BoS is not good. Or at least it should not be. Assuming you are putting this alignment together based on the wastelander's point of view (point of view is of course extremely important when considering this kind of thing) then BoS and Enclave are both evil (unless the BoS is currently acting like the fail FO3 variant in which case they are lawful failure).

Looking at it from Wastelander perspective (also note I am completely unfamiliar with the current major factions so this is just general factions)

LG: Probably would be the best-run settlement that existed for the purpose of ensuring good lives for its citizens. Since I am thinking about FO3 right now and how much I hate its canon I would say a place like Megaton would be a good example.
NG: Someone like the Lone Wanderer if a faction equivalent of that exists, ie a group that would protect wastelanders against raiders or unjust settlement dwellers. Reilly's Rangers from FO3 comes to mind.
CG: Bounty Hunters or similar.

LN: Can't really think of anything FO wise that is LN other than brahmin or other animals.
TN: Caravans or traders
CN: Deathclaws/similar creatures. Mercenaries (could also be true neutral, depends on what they are contracted to do. Someone like a body guard is probably true neutral. Someone who goes around attacking Enclave patrols is Chaotic.

LE: No idea. I guess if there is a settlement built on oppression or rigid control then that. (Possibly the Institute but I don't give enough of a damn to actually read all that shit)
NE: BoS, Enclave
CE: Raiders/jet fiends/etc

...although it is hard to have lawful ANYTHING in a society with no laws.

[Wolfinton]

*cough*like the chapter before the wipe before the wipe*cough*.

There's the door, fucker.
I ran the BoS well.

I didn't say you didn't at the time, but recruiting Wastelanders was what I was pointing out. Completely out of the Brotherhoodsa character.

Paintcheck, I would say that they are Lawful Evil due to people such as dictators and the like being LE yet they follow their own rules and the citizens don't think they're lawful.

[Paintcheck]

Following your own rules doesn't make you lawful evil unless those rules are the law that everyone else follows. Someone who follows a set of rules other than society's is neutral good/evil. Someone who has no discernible rule set is chaotic. Someone who works within society's laws is lawful. Dictators make laws that's why they are lawful evil.

A divorce lawyer or injury lawyer would be a good example of real life lawful evil. It is their job to fuck another person over as hard as they possibly can within the law of the land. Neutral good would be like batman. He goes outside the law but he follows his own code.

[Khorn]

In a way, they are following orders of the current President of the United States.

Wasters may not folllow the president nor know about him, but the government is still kicking since the war.

Its like their still are laws, its just that that are almost unknown by anyone outside of Enclave.

[Paintcheck]

In a way, they are following orders of the current President of the United States.

Wasters may not folllow the president nor know about him, but the government is still kicking since the war.

Its like their still are laws, its just that that are almost unknown by anyone outside of Enclave.

Which is why I specifically said "From a waster's point of view". From their own pov the Enclave are lawful good.

[Plunger]

From everybodies PoV their usually Lawful Good, and this whole idea sounds pretty poor, promotes metagaming.