Making Character Stats Useful

Started by Khorn, 09-01-2012

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Tom

Quote from: Jake on 17-01-2012
Quote from: halokiller38 on 17-01-2012
Hmm... Maybe there should be a system for bartering with traders. You know with speech and all.

yeah and the traders should be npcs

Lets make FORP. . .

JUST LIKE FONLINE
Quote from: TheAndyShandy on 05-12-2013
Oh boy.
Strap yourselves in, it's time for the great 'obligatory' SRP resurrection of 2013/14/15/16/22

Snazzy

Quote from: Jake on 17-01-2012
Quote from: halokiller38 on 17-01-2012
Hmm... Maybe there should be a system for bartering with traders. You know with speech and all.

yeah and the traders should be npcs


Ehh... NPC traders kinda ruin the fun of FORP. It makes it interesting when you use actual RPers
I had my second chance and I selfishly blew it for petty revenge on people who didn't even deserve it. I abused Exile's trust in me and now I'm banned forever. :(

Madcombat

While we are at it, lets add in companions that are NPC's.
On a more serious note, in all forms of respect Khorn I really doubt this would work, especially at HGN.  It'd just create problems mate and lets face it.  If people could see other peoples stats with this system there a nice ol' thing that people WILL take advantage of even if they claim they arnt and we call that METAGAME.
We can babble away at this all we want about how they will be put down by admins but you can not solve a issue created by ones sub-conciousness.  We need to go deeper.

Snazzy

Quote from: Madcombat on 17-01-2012
While we are at it, lets add in companions that are NPC's.



NPC Companions sound good.
I had my second chance and I selfishly blew it for petty revenge on people who didn't even deserve it. I abused Exile's trust in me and now I'm banned forever. :(

StickyWicket

Fuck it, why don't we just turn the whole script into a fallout simulator.

Khorn

#30
Good to know people can read.


But to respond to Mad, I'd like to ask, how would it seeing another players stat affect anything?
I suggest to have it visible in order to make player's /roll more honest.

But it's easy enough to just have it not show. But then people could say their stat is at something it isn't in order to make them win.



And what's stopping people from metagaming already? People do it all the time. So if they do metagame with the Stats, then we kick them. But to ask, I don't see how having it shown would help another player.

Paintcheck

#31
Quote from: Khorn on 09-01-2012

I would like if Spades, Pink, Caso, and Paint would respond, as I talked to them first about this and they all had a general positive look on it.


...Whoops. Well I guess better late than never.

First off as I am sure most of you are extremely well aware I HATE stats. The whole reason I RP on Gmod instead of, say, spending 1020510350310 hours playing Skyrim or [insert any other RPG here] is because stats limit choice. I was playing New Vegas the other day and was passing through a train tunnel. To get in was a Very Hard lock door (or whatever it is that requires 100 lockpick to get through) and I managed to get through it by reading one of the lockpick temporary skill boost books. I cleared out the whole tunnel and arrived at the end (after the boost to my lockpick had worn off) to find it locked by another Very Hard locked door and me with like 90 lock pick ability and absolutely no way through. That was rage inducing because the door wasn't barricaded or anything it was a normal-looking door and my character has like 500 pounds of explosives in inventory all of which would break through the door easily as well as a companion with a power fist  who could probably have literally just smashed the door down. But instead of being free to pursue any of those actions, the game said "Nope you don't have the stats for it, good bye" and I raged and haven't played NV since. I really hate the idea of not being able to do something because of some artificial stat limiter saying "ONLY this skill will let you pass" or "You didn't roll high enough so you lose". That's not how roleplay should work.

That being said I see this having excellent potential for things like combat (especially combat) and medicine and other technical skills. To the people saying "we should totally have a barter mechanism/charisma mechanism" no that is a terrible idea. I know Khorn has it listed but it's stupid. As someone who played a trader on SRP almost exclusively for 2 years I would not be happy having some artificial role dictating RP rather than the person ACTUALLY BARTERING. Stats should not be an excuse to not roleplay. Should this system be implemented fights are not going to turn into "Ok I roll and now you roll and now I roll and we see who dies" which seems to be what a lot of people are fearing; instead you'd /me as normal but instead of having ambiguity over who wins based on a 50/50 chance (like the current roll system) this would allow people to play to their strengths. A super mutant swinging a fire hydrant is obviously going to be better at melee than some random weak wastelander with a shovel. Stats the way Khorn described would prevent utterly ludicrous situations from occurring due to the 50/50 nature of a normal roll. I recall one time on STALKER a single unarmed loner managed to literally kung fu his way past 3 bloodsuckers at once because the rolls kept coming up his way. With stats the suckers would have had advantages in Agility that would make the fight more realistic (although it was rather funny to see a random loner literally run circles around 3 suckers at once)

I think maybe having 6 stats is overkill for what Khorn has in mind. I would keep Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, and Constitution. Strength for melee attacks and moving/lifting things, dexterity for guns and checks like jumping a fence, Intelligence for medicine, bomb defusal, and Constitution for how much health you have. Charisma has no point because it's just a license to power game other players, I don't see the purpose of having Wisdom AND intelligence (I know D&D makes a distinction but I don't think it's necessary for a Gmod server). This would allow actions like combat and other "zero sum" skills (ie where someone can win or lose, such as breaking into a lock container or patching a bullet hole) to have a more realistic system rather than just 50/50 chance normal rolling provides without being too disruptive to people who don't want to roll play (ie people who never fight or steal or whatnot).

The only major problem I have with this (ignoring coding it although really all that needs to be coded is a list of numbers that sticks with the player and can be viewed by anyone (to prevent lying) and people can just add the numbers together manually) is who determines who gets what stats but I know Khorn is working on how that will happen so I'm not too worried. I would really like to see this implemented on Crussaria because it would make sword fights much, much, much easier to referee.

EDIT: Just noticed this post by Silver:
Quote from: Last.Exile on 10-01-2012
The real question is, is this what people really want? Instead of being able to physically shoot\swing the weapon?

There's lots that can be done to make a solid rpg like combat experience while maintaining roleplay, it's just a way to justify the characters capabilities.



To the first point I know I hate using Sweps because on Crussaria they are almost unusable (and there are no magic sweps that aren't horribly overpowered/broken so being a mage I don't really have an option) and on SRP they are so unbalanced that going into a fight with anything other than a handful of guns means you will lose. Working sweps would be nice because it allows for increased NPC use (right now again on Crussaria the melee weapons really don't work against NPCs, most players I know who have tried to take on even a tier 1 enemy like a spider or a wolf get killed without even landing a hit due to the wonkiness of the sweps) but for player vs player combat I know I don't want to just be walking along and shot in the head out of nowhere (I'd play COD, STALKER, or any of the other 9351991 FPS games I own that all have much better weapons and combat in them over SRP if SRP was "shoot everyone all the time when you feel like it").

To the second point I think Khorn is onto something for maintaining RP while also decreasing the "randomness" of encounters.

Khorn

I do agree on removing the less than useful stats. And not using it on trading as that become way to imposing on others.


But to make a clear point to others, if they missed it, players would still require to make a valid /me in order to use a /roll. This wouldn't make /me useless where people can just /roll, /roll, /roll, shoot, win.
A /me would still be required, and not just a simple /me aims gun and fires, /roll.

It'd be similar to the usual /me roleplay that already takes place on the server, but instead of relying on the random 0-100 dice we use, or having people try every thing they can to keep their player alive in a /me fight, it be reliant on a more fair roll system that would cut back on the randomness of a /roll fight, or the possibility of power gaming in a /me fight.


That example Paint said, with the 3 suckers and 1 stalker is a fine example of why our /roll is terrible in it's current state.

And again, the weapons issue is why STK fights are difficult. If your gun wasn't scripted to shoot straight, you would lose. The guns aren't made to really fight each other.
So STK is a bit unreliable. And unfair to those who aren't good at shooting in games.

And the main issue with /me is the accidental to attempted powergame, not all players like getting killed. And I have witness players do what they can to prolong what should be their certain doom.
In FRP and SRP.

Madcombat

I just hate roleplaying with a /roll system, it makes the entire encounter completely unbalanced as well as retarded, doing this I think will just make it worse.  How can ones strengh determine that you will win a fight realisticly?

Khorn

Quote from: Madcombat on 18-01-2012
I just hate roleplaying with a /roll system, it makes the entire encounter completely unbalanced as well as retarded, doing this I think will just make it worse.  How can ones strengh determine that you will win a fight realisticly?


Well for one thing, you aren't forced to use it. Ever. At all. It's not required. You can ignore it. Not needed.

Understand?


As for making it unbalanced, it wouldn't be. A character that is better at fighting would and should have a better chance than one that isn't. Again, the system wouldn't be unbalanced nor retard as it has been used time and again
in other forms of RP.

And lastly, Strength doesn't determine the fight, only how hard you can hit.


And to make even more sure, as people seem to avoid this little bit of info as if it were the plague.
It would be an OPTION for roleplay, not forced nor required to be used at all.

Paintcheck

Making this optional defeats the purpose as people would use it when theyknew they'd win and ignore it when the situation was not in their favor.

jaik

Quote from: Paintcheck on 18-01-2012
Making this optional defeats the purpose as people would use it when theyknew they'd win and ignore it when the situation was not in their favor.

And making this required will defeat the purpose of making different kinds of characters.
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Paintcheck

Nope.

As stated before it has some issues when you have 2, say wastelanders going at it since their stats would be very similar but then it's not any different than the normal rolling we have now. The advantage in this lies in situations where one side should have an advantage ie a super mutant fighting a wastelander hand to hand. There is no reason at all the two of them should be on even footing in a fist fight but that's what people RP it like because they don't want to lose.

Ideally you wouldn't need any sort of roll or stats or anything at all but since people have a very hard time understanding that fighting a super mutant using only your fists is not going to result in anything other than a trip to the morgue for their character this would be a good way to make them see sense.

Khorn

What if,  once the new roll commands are in, we give this a test with a handful of players?

That way people can give a chance to love it or hate it.

And there would be multiple tests to give more variety.

Mr. Pink

Not to be negative, but this strikes me as another hole leading to Exile's cave for us to throw money into...
I wish for a pinball machine full of Cannabis.